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Pro/Anti Child Bearing Policies (split from "Canada don’t matter" thread)

I don't doubt it is possible in some areas of the country.

However as @Remius points out that is below "replacement rate" where generally you need 2.3 children / household to maintain the status quo.

BUT if we take a dose of Thomas Malthus, maybe population decline or at least stagnation isn't a terrible thing...
or even that fertility decline is a function of the population to begin with

again from my favorite tweeter


notice the rapidly falling number of births in China compared to the US. China's century will be over before it even got started
 
or even that fertility decline is a function of the population to begin with

again from my favorite tweeter


notice the rapidly falling number of births in China compared to the US. China's century will be over before it even got started
Increased middle class and quality of life, engineered one child policy for generations and female foeticide all add up.
 
I don't doubt it is possible in some areas of the country.

However as @Remius points out that is below "replacement rate" where generally you need 2.3 children / household to maintain the status quo.

BUT if we take a dose of Thomas Malthus, maybe population decline or at least stagnation isn't a terrible thing...

That was more about the affordability of it all than replacement.
 
Again the idea of a man as the sole breadwinner was dead by 1945. It lingered into the 60's, but by the 70's it was fully buried. 2 Income families also gave rise to huge standard of living increases (and inflation).
It was still very alive into the '80s. Only a very small handful of the women (mothers, wives) in the suburb I grew up in had jobs, and few of those were on career tracks.
I don't think dual income parents are a bad thing, that is is required is a bad thing however.
But it's a Catch-22 in the inflation game, that if you end up with a high family income, that it's going to get nibbled at, and make single income families next to impossible.
Part of what upset the balance was people having fewer or no kids, which increased disposable income.
Medium Family income is in the mid 6 figures.
$500,000 ?
 
Women were by the end of WW2 heavily involved in the workforce due to the wartime economy.

Again the idea of a man as the sole breadwinner was dead by 1945. It lingered into the 60's, but by the 70's it was fully buried. 2 Income families also gave rise to huge standard of living increases (and inflation).
1715614994110.png
Only became the majoritarian norm for mothers of infants in mid '80s.
I don't think dual income parents are a bad thing, that is is required is a bad thing however.
But it's a Catch-22 in the inflation game, that if you end up with a high family income, that it's going to get nibbled at, and make single income families next to impossible.
If the not-bad thing implies the bad thing, isn't it also a bad thing? Unless you've got a solution to decouple one from the other.

At any rate though, women have never been entirely outside the workforce. Whether it was as the gatherer part of hunter-gatherer, as butter churners, as tailors, as caregivers, as schoolteachers, they've always contributed to their larger community by taking on important tasks. So I don't think the notion of male sole breadwinner is particularly useful. It'd be better described as primary breadwinner.
That is a societal/parental issue - if we as an adult society set realistic bars for things, then everyone wouldn't be out trying to keep up (and their kids up) with the Jones's.

I think you are overly creative in the above - Western Values only recently allowed women to vote, and outlawed slavery...
So I think we need to agree that the definitions of freedom and dignity and who they relate to have been changing, and still are.
And yet it is the West that ended slavery, globally, and continues to fight it to this day as it is practiced mostly in non-Western countries.

I don't think it's useful to think of suffrage as an essential component of human dignity. Men only received universal suffrage 33 years earlier than women in Canada. It would be somewhat conceited to claim that Christianity provided humanity no good until we stumbled upon universal suffrage, or that women were particularly aggrieved by these three short decades. Lest we forget, only about a third of women were in favour of universal suffrage.
I think you started strong but end up jumping the shark -- Canada was always referred to as a mixed salad in terms of immigration and the lack of assimilation to a "Canadian" culture - it started with the French, when the English didn't extinguish the French Canadian culture. While down here, America has always prided itself as a Melting Pot where immigrants merge and become Americans with a slight flavor of their ancestors.
Canada and the US are particular cases, yes. Both jumped on the DEI bandwagon as a way to try and solve their respective minority problem (Blacks and Frogs). Nonetheless, the current state of affairs cannot be associated with the word "always" as you do. Here's some data:
1715616203284.png1715616283066.png1715616421847.png
Early immigration: fellow Europeans who carried similar cultural and social norms and practices, including the aforementioned civilizational heritage.
New immigration: globalized, not of Christian heritage, and too high to allow assimilation that would alleviate the impact of those differences.
The American West was literally built by German and English frontiersmen. Whereas the Irish stayed in the cities to try and get jobs, which caused more resentment. Same as the new-wave global immigrants, without the Irish advantage of being Europeans who would be easily assimilated.

Here in Quebec, the PQ is vehemently opposed to mass migration, except when it comes to... you guessed it, Mexicans who work the fields. History repeats itself.
I've mentioned this before but if you look at those graphs, the about-face that American youth is performing on the Israel-Palestine question is not surprising, but a predictable consequence of post-globalization immigration policy. Expect more of this.

Point being, North American contemporary immigration policy is not the same as it "always" was, and this is a rhetorical trick performed to convince people of a degree of inevitability in the policy choices that are made today, when it isn't so.

I would stipulate that Diversity, Inclusiveness, Equality is not a bad thing, as long as it is not done at the expense of other's rights.
But it always is and should be banned in the public sector. It is simply ridiculous for a country like Canada, on track for Whites to become a minority, to have a constitutional provision that states discrimination is illegal except against White people.
I'd like to offer one point from a very small sample size of my immediate neighborhood. We have 6 homes in our little area, each sit on about 2 acres.
H1: Dual Income 2.5 kids (my eldest son lives in Calgary with his GF, and is from Training Wife, so I only counted him as .5 ;) )
H2: Single Income 3 kids (mother was a teacher who now stays home with the children, and also takes care of Brothers kids -> H3)
H3: Dual Income 3 kids
H4: Dual Income 3 kids (Wife on maternity leave due to #3)
H5: Dual Income 5 kids (blended family 2+2 and 1 together)
H6: Dual Income 1 Child

Medium Family income is in the mid 6 figures.
So 400-600k? That tracks with the data. The kids-to-wealth graph is U-shaped.
 
Increased middle class and quality of life, engineered one child policy for generations and female foeticide all add up.
although i think its unclear how successful the one child policy was, it did certainly help redefine what a normal family is

trying to manage our population globally or nationally from an excess production/fertility state through collapsing fertility and back to stability is going to be a great challenge especially when we arent or havent really been doing or trying
 
Which is still slightly skewed in that regard because a P1 will get family benefits and salary above what the average citizen would get.

You know he didn't join the CAF as P1 right ? And his kids are 13 and 10.

What family benefits? He lives in a Q and lost his PLD.
 
You know he didn't join the CAF as P1 right ? And his kids are 13 and 10.

What family benefits? He lives in a Q and lost his PLD.
Nonetheless, there is a great deal of life security that comes with being a member of the CAF, which I think is what he was getting at.

However, to your point, having one stay-at-home parent does significantly reduce expenses if done right. Time spent cooking, crafting, renovating, repairing, etc is all money you're not throwing out the window, and it can also be time invested in teaching those skills to your kids, who then go on to need less money to get through life.

Older folks often complain nowadays that kids don't know how to do anything... well... look inwards, I say.
 
View attachment 85168
Only became the majoritarian norm for mothers of infants in mid '80s.

If the not-bad thing implies the bad thing, isn't it also a bad thing? Unless you've got a solution to decouple one from the other.

At any rate though, women have never been entirely outside the workforce. Whether it was as the gatherer part of hunter-gatherer, as butter churners, as tailors, as caregivers, as schoolteachers, they've always contributed to their larger community by taking on important tasks. So I don't think the notion of male sole breadwinner is particularly useful. It'd be better described as primary breadwinner.
Generally their employment ended with childbirth. Or continued if widowed or spinsters.
And yet it is the West that ended slavery, globally, and continues to fight it to this day as it is practiced mostly in non-Western countries.
No. The British ended slavery and everyone else in the west did so kicking and screaming. The US civil war and fil rights issues is a testament to that.
I don't think it's useful to think of suffrage as an essential component of human dignity. Men only received universal suffrage 33 years earlier than women in Canada. It would be somewhat conceited to claim that Christianity provided humanity no good until we stumbled upon universal suffrage, or that women were particularly aggrieved by these three short decades. Lest we forget, only about a third of women were in favour of universal suffrage.
It would also be conceited to not admit that many things that happened socially etc were despite Christianity. I’m not knocking Christianity per se just that it has been universally resistant to change. But it has evolved normally due to reformations and revolutions in its own right.
Canada and the US are particular cases, yes. Both jumped on the DEI bandwagon as a way to try and solve their respective minority problem (Blacks and Frogs). Nonetheless, the current state of affairs cannot be associated with the word "always" as you do. Here's some data:
View attachment 85169View attachment 85170View attachment 85171
Early immigration: fellow Europeans who carried similar cultural and social norms and practices, including the aforementioned civilizational heritage.
New immigration: globalized, not of Christian heritage, and too high to allow assimilation that would alleviate the impact of those differences.
This is a dangerous tangent. Plenty of non Christian’s came to the Americas well before now. It is NOT new.
The American West was literally built by German and English frontiersmen. Whereas the Irish stayed in the cities to try and get jobs, which caused more resentment. Same as the new-wave global immigrants, without the Irish advantage of being Europeans who would be easily assimilated.
Ah yes, and yet we forgot the people that really opened the west via rail etc.
Here in Quebec, the PQ is vehemently opposed to mass migration, except when it comes to... you guessed it, Mexicans who work the fields. History repeats itself.
Mexicans are brought in for temporary work not actually immigration. They are opposed to mass Anglo/non Franco migration.
I've mentioned this before but if you look at those graphs, the about-face that American youth is performing on the Israel-Palestine question is not surprising, but a predictable consequence of post-globalization immigration policy. Expect more of this.

Point being, North American contemporary immigration policy is not the same as it "always" was, and this is a rhetorical trick performed to convince people of a degree of inevitability in the policy choices that are made today, when it isn't so.
Current immigration policies will always be in flux. But North America has always brought in immigrants and not just from Eurocentric Christian nations.
But it always is and should be banned in the public sector. It is simply ridiculous for a country like Canada, on track for Whites to become a minority, to have a constitutional provision that states discrimination is illegal except against White people.
Oh boy. I agree that policies should be neutral in that regard but…
So 400-600k? That tracks with the data. The kids-to-wealth graph is U-shaped.
 
You know he didn't join the CAF as P1 right ? And his kids are 13 and 10.

What family benefits? He lives in a Q and lost his PLD.
Sure. Did he join with two or three kids?

Are you saying that the family has no health benefits, or family benefits at all? Did they claw all those away? If he dies will his spouse not be cared for with various programs? Did he not have paternity leave available?

Seems like he stopped at two. Maybe they will have more but looks like two was the deciding number they could afford. Not the three that would be required to replace and or maintain.
 
This is a dangerous tangent.
Go on. Do not hold your thoughts.
Plenty of non Christian’s came to the Americas well before now. It is NOT new.
The graph is clear. Deny all you wish.
Ah yes, and yet we forgot the people that really opened the west via rail etc.
Graph.
North America has always brought in immigrants and not just from Eurocentric Christian nations.
Look at the graph.
Oh boy. I agree that policies should be neutral in that regard but…
But what.
 
Sure. Did he join with two or three kids?

Are you saying that the family has no health benefits, or family benefits at all? Did they claw all those away? If he dies will his spouse not be cared for with various programs? Did he not have paternity leave available?

Seems like he stopped at two. Maybe they will have more but looks like two was the deciding number they could afford. Not the three that would be required to replace and or maintain.

He joined with a wife, they've been together since HS, and I would surmise that he had this kids in is LS years. Or S1 now I suppose.

You're talking about our compensation and benefits package. Sure. I misunderstood by what you meant by family benefits.
 
Profoundly financial, if nothing else..

Thinking about having a kid? Here’s how much Canadians spend to raise one​


According to new data released by Statistics Canada on Sept. 29, a middle-income family with two parents and two children spends on average $293,000 to raise one kid till the age of 17.

For lower-income families earning less than $83,013 per year before tax, this spending comes down to roughly $238,190.

Higher-income families — making more than $135,970 gross yearly — would spend about $403,910 per child.

If the children live five more years in the family home from the age of 18 to 22, that would mean an additional $68,000 to $117,000 spent per kid, and that varies depending on the family size and how much they earn, StatCan said.

My grains of proverbial salt
Additionally, because expenditures were largely reported at the household level, decisions were made regarding the proportion of expenditures to assign to children, which may have resulted in an over- or underestimation of expenditures associated with children.
Translation: We guessed at a lot of things to make detailed conclusions from general data

For housing, a different method was used, which estimated the cost of having an additional bedroom in the dwelling. This was based on the rationale that the presence of a child would affect the number of bedrooms in a home, but not necessarily the number of rooms in the rest of the dwelling. This method is similar to the method used by Lino et al. (2017) and assumed that the cost of an additional bedroom was half of the difference (increase) in the cost of housing for a four-bedroom dwelling versus a dwelling with two or fewer bedrooms. However, when the exact approach of Lino et al. (2017) was used with the Canadian data, the cost of an additional bedroom appeared to be either zero, negative, or decreased with increasing income. These results were not intuitive, and further examination showed that the average number of bedrooms was only slightly higher for families with two children versus those with one child. As well, spending on housing seemed to be more associated with the level of income than the number of bedrooms. Given the strong influence of income groups on housing expenditures, it was decided to model the housing expenditures as a function of the number of bedrooms and the income group, resulting in more intuitive estimates.
Translation: we manufactured a formula to give us the answer we wanted.
 
Go on. Do not hold your thoughts.
Let’s start with EDI initiatives banning it at the public sector level. And you forget that their minority issues were caused by the majority.
The graph is clear. Deny all you wish.
Which one and what exactly? Your first graph only shows top ancestery by county. It doesn’t show total population groups. Are you saying blacks, Asians and middle eastern and Mexicans are all from Europe? I didn’t deny anything if you read my statement.
Same graph? Your other two just shows total share of immigrants in the population and the other is unclear. It looks like a partial graph with data of the 20th century.
Look at the graph.
I am. What does it do to refute what I said? We’ve always brought in immigrants and not always from Europe. Are you denying this? Your graphs certainly are not.
But what.
I partially answered above. But what constitutional provisions do we have that discriminates against white people?
 
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Let’s start with EDI initiatives banning it at the public sector level. And you forget that their minority issues were caused by the majority. These things are not necessarily.

Which one and what exactly? Your first graph only shows top ancestery by county. It doesn’t show total population groups. Are you saying blacks, Asians and middle eastern and Mexicans are all from Europe? I didn’t deny anything if you read my statement.

Same graph? Your other two just shows total share of immigrants in the population and the other is unclear. It looks like a partial graph with data of the 20th century.

I am. What does it do to refute what I said? We’ve always brought in immigrants and not always from Europe. Are you denying this? Your graphs certainly are not.

I partially answered above. But what constitutional provisions do we have that discriminates against white people?
I dont know that TacticalT is wrong but i agree the i dont see the evidence in the graphs. Unless we are meant to extrapolate from the US

The non ethno nation state is a grand experiment in itself considering how much effort was expended in WW1 and WW2 to reduce much of the world to them. Time will tell but then at one time there were no WASPS here either (how do natives feel about that?) and I remember the days when being a Roman Catholic was a huge deal never mind being Italian or Portuguese
 
Let’s start with EDI initiatives banning it at the public sector level. And you forget that their minority issues were caused by the majority.

Which one and what exactly? Your first graph only shows top ancestery by county. It doesn’t show total population groups. Are you saying blacks, Asians and middle eastern and Mexicans are all from Europe? I didn’t deny anything if you read my statement.

Same graph? Your other two just shows total share of immigrants in the population and the other is unclear. It looks like a partial graph with data of the 20th century.

I am. What does it do to refute what I said? We’ve always brought in immigrants and not always from Europe. Are you denying this? Your graphs certainly are not.

I partially answered above. But what constitutional provisions do we have that discriminates against white people?
The graph that shows countries of origin. It shows that 99% of immigrants were of European descent until the 50s.

I don't know how that's hard to see.

If you want a second opinion, I recommend listening to this, Gad Saad describing the problems of mass migration and failure of assimilation:
 
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