Leo 2A6M CAN - are they in service?

[childs56]

CO of the LdSH asked this in 2019, CCA at the time was very blunt about our parts issues and the concern about supporting a Squadron over there.

We would be 18 driving hrs from the Manufacture of the tank in Latvia verses a flight across the ocean and we would still have parts problems. Something tells me procurement has failed and excuses from all levels have been incoming.
Being the Canadian way, we would have to ask for the parts, get approval from TB, then Parliament would have to vote on it (since it is summer break has to wait until the fall) ship the parts from Germany, via cargo ship to Quebec (would get held up at sea for 3 months due to contractor not paying the bill) Clear Customs (3 months), sit in depot for a year until people figure out what they ordered because it came in late and they already ordered new replacements. Then have a complaint that we did a sole source bid. Have to pay out the costs of that complaint. Then inspect (parts are timed out) re order and replace the new parts. Then finally ship the new parts across the country only to find out we modified our Tanks just enough that the part does not fit properly. Send off to third party repair facility back across the country for modifications only to be returned and then fitted. By then the tanks were removed from service due to the healing fence did not heal them. They turned into hanger queens. Sounds close to right.

I thought we had tanks in Latvia. Hopefully they have have been training some local Ukraine forces on how to use our modified tanks so it is a quick delivery.

 

[markppcli]

We would be 18 driving hrs from the Manufacture of the tank in Latvia verses a flight across the ocean and we would still have parts problems. Something tells me procurement has failed and excuses from all levels have been incoming.

We literally ordered parts from Germany for AHSVs and G Rides that would then be shipped to Canada and sent to us via Montreal. Instead of buying from the Mercedes truck dealership in Riga. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

Being the Canadian way, we would have to ask for the parts, get approval from TB, then Parliament would have to vote on it (since it is summer break has to wait until the fall) ship the parts from Germany, via cargo ship to Quebec (would get held up at sea for 3 months due to contractor not paying the bill) Clear Customs (3 months), sit in depot for a year until people figure out what they ordered because it came in late and they already ordered new replacements. Then have a complaint that we did a sole source bid. Have to pay out the costs of that complaint. Then inspect (parts are timed out) re order and replace the new parts. Then finally ship the new parts across the country only to find out we modified our Tanks just enough that the part does not fit properly. Send off to third party repair facility back across the country for modifications only to be returned and then fitted. By then the tanks were removed from service due to the healing fence did not heal them. They turned into hanger queens. Sounds close to right.

I thought we had tanks in Latvia. Hopefully they have have been training some local Ukraine forces on how to use our modified tanks so it is a quick delivery.

No we’ve never had tanks in Latvia, the armour is provided by the Poles, Spanish, and occasionally Italians (they rotate a light company with an armoured combat team for reasons no one can answer).

 

[MJP]

We literally ordered parts from Germany for AHSVs and G Rides that would then be shipped to Canada and sent to us via Montreal. Instead of buying from the Mercedes truck dealership in Riga. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

No we’ve never had tanks in Latvia, the armour is provided by the Poles, Spanish, and occasionally Italians (they rotate a light company with an armoured combat team for reasons no one can

Missions are not set up to pay invoices (National procurement ones that is) nor conduct technical inspections of material. Nor are 1st and 2nd line pers well versed in dealing with discrepancies. Depots do all that and more on behalf of all end users. Also, typically the procurement activities cover lots of material required for all vehicles across Canada not just what is on a mission.

All hurdles that could be potentially overcome with planning but that needs coordination with ADMMAT. No one is just going to change standard business on whim

In the case of the G Wagon nothing stops the LCMM and the SM saying go get the part from the dealership LPO if avail and compatible. Again that is just staff work.

No we’ve never had tanks in Latvia, the armour is provided by the Poles, Spanish, and occasionally Italians (they rotate a light company with an armoured combat team for reasons no one can

In 2017 they told us that they switch between a mechanized and a light infantry company as they don't use their armored vehicles in the winter

 

[markppcli]

Missions are not set up to pay invoices (National procurement ones that is) nor conduct technical inspections of material. Nor are 1st and 2nd line pers well versed in dealing with discrepancies. Depots do all that and more on behalf of all end users. Also, typically the procurement activities cover lots of material required for all vehicles across Canada not just what is on a mission.

All hurdles that could be potentially overcome with planning but that needs coordination with ADMMAT. No one is just going to change standard business on whim

In the case of the G Wagon nothing stops the LCMM and the SM saying go get the part from the dealership LPO if avail and compatible. Again that is just staff work.



In 2017 they told us that they switch between a mechanized and a light infantry company as they don't use their armored vehicles in the winter

Which is weird since they change around in like Janurary

 

[Kirkhill]

Ukraine Situation Report: Kyiv’s Modern Tank Corps Begins To Take Shape

Ukrainian troops are well into training with British troops on the Challenger 2, while some of their future Leopard 2s are being shipped.

www.thedrive.com

THE WAR IN UKRAINE
5 February 2023 at 07:33

Poland: The training of Ukrainian soldiers in the use of Leopard tanks is underway​

Poland is already in the process of training Ukrainian soldiers in the use of Leopard tanks, according to the country's defense minister.
The Ukrainian soldiers receive their training in Poland, says Defense Minister Mariusz Baszczak to local media.
According to the Polish news agency PAP, he traveled to Kyiv on Friday to discuss plans to supply Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.
According to Baszczak, it is impossible to say how long it will take to train the Ukrainian soldiers to use the carts, but he thinks it is a matter of weeks and not months.
His comments came in response to German media reports that several Nato countries have reneged on their promises to supply tanks to Ukraine.
Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov and President Volodymyr Zelenskyj personally thank Baszczak for Poland's key role in making the deliveries of the German-made Leopard tanks possible. (NTB)

Polen: Opplæringen av ukrainske soldater i bruk av Leopard-stridsvogner er i gang

Polen er allerede i gang med opplæringen av ukrainske soldater i bruk av Leopard-stridsvogner, ifølge landets forsvarsminister. De ukrainske soldatene får opplæringen i Polen, sier forsvarsminister Mariusz Baszczak til lokale medier. Han reiste ifølge det polske nyhetsbyrået PAP til Kyiv fredag...

www-nrk-no.translate.goog

 

[Spencer100]

There are plenty of shops around Canada who are more then capable of maintaining our Armored fleet if given the contract.

Amazingly not. I have the original RFP from over 10 years ago. Just the floor requirements are something else. My floors of heavy industrial were not enough. Over 10 inches of concrete. You need way more Plus a foundation layer. Then a crane way lift of 50 tons required. You should see the engineering needed for that. Tens of millions in capital just for cranes and floors. Then add the building, other equipment, rail line access. The list of buildings goees down very fast. Yes there are places that fit the bill. But not as much as you would think.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Amazingly not. I have the original RFP from over 10 years ago. Just the floor requirements are something else. My floors of heavy industrial were not enough. Over 10 inches of concrete. You need way more Plus a foundation layer. Then a crane way lift of 50 tons required. You should see the engineering needed for that. Tens of millions in capital just for cranes and floors. Then add the building, other equipment, rail line access. The list of buildings goees down very fast. Yes there are places that fit the bill. But not as much as you would think.

What about these guys?

 

[Spencer100]

Irving's or the ships?

Oh I'm sure Irving's would do it. They would need the PO. I'm just saying to set up a new operation I'm sure it would be over 100 million for a new build and start up.

 

[childs56]

Amazingly not. I have the original RFP from over 10 years ago. Just the floor requirements are something else. My floors of heavy industrial were not enough. Over 10 inches of concrete. You need way more Plus a foundation layer. Then a crane way lift of 50 tons required. You should see the engineering needed for that. Tens of millions in capital just for cranes and floors. Then add the building, other equipment, rail line access. The list of buildings goees down very fast. Yes there are places that fit the bill. But not as much as you would think.

Ever see the old Finning shop in Red Deer? They worked everything big Cat. They have a 40ton overhead crane set up. I am sure upgradeable to 50 ton of required.
Many of the Mining Towns around Canada will have shops with similar capacity.

 

[KevinB]

Ever see the old Finning shop in Red Deer? They worked everything big Cat. They have a 40ton overhead crane set up. I am sure upgradeable to 50 ton of required.
Many of the Mining Towns around Canada will have shops with similar capacity.

Having briefly worked in the Shell/Cat-Finning shop in the Athabaskan Tar Sands - most of those sites had the capability. But no one wants to be there (I went back to Iraq because it was so f’ing depressing).

Not sure the Red Deer site had the capabilities of the Tar Sands shops.

 

[markppcli]

Having briefly worked in the Shell/Cat-Finning shop in the Athabaskan Tar Sands - most of those sites had the capability. But no one wants to be there (I went back to Iraq because it was so f’ing depressing).

Not sure the Red Deer site had the capabilities of the Tar Sands shops.

There’s also this small matter of Finnings probably having enough customers that they don’t want / need / have time for us. And the. We get to try and shop it around, conduct a security audit… or we could just maintain our own facilities since we’ll need people to fix them down range anyway.

 

[KevinB]

There’s also this small matter of Finnings probably having enough customers that they don’t want / need / have time for us. And the. We get to try and shop it around, conduct a security audit… or we could just maintain our own facilities since we’ll need people to fix them down range anyway.

110%

 

[childs56]

There’s also this small matter of Finnings probably having enough customers that they don’t want / need / have time for us. And the. We get to try and shop it around, conduct a security audit… or we could just maintain our own facilities since we’ll need people to fix them down range anyway.

Again a reason why we can't do something. Many of our Military Allies use third party contractor's to perform maintenance on their "sensitive"equipment.
Finning no longer uses the facility in Red Deer. Part of it is leased out to another company, I am sure if it was to sell they would sell the whole facility.
From the sounds of it we don't have enougj of the proper facilities and or trained staff to maintain our fleet right now.
Lol security now that's funny. On many Canadian Military bases is laughable at best, for the most part. Friday afternoon lock the door set the alarm(if they have one and it works) and go home for the weekend.

 

[markppcli]

Again a reason why we can't do something.

It’s almost like any course of action has Pros and Cons which should be weighed, and sometimes the Cons outweighs the Pros.

Many of our Military Allies use third party contractor's to perform maintenance on their "sensitive"equipment.

So do we. Just in our facilities.

Finning no longer uses the facility in Red Deer. Part of it is leased out to another company, I am sure if it was to sell they would sell the whole facility.
From the sounds of it we don't have enougj of the proper facilities and or trained staff to maintain our fleet right now.

Facilities are not, and have never been the issue. People.. yes to a point, parts are the real issue. Unless you’re going to totally overhaul our supply chain to Rheinmetal I don’t see much effect.

Lol security now that's funny. On many Canadian Military bases is laughable at best, for the most part. Friday afternoon lock the door set the alarm(if they have one and it works) and go home for the weekend.

If your alarms didn’t work at your facility that’s a serious breach and would warrant investigation. Bases are also secured by MPs, Edmonton is gated and patrolled, Shilo is patrolled, I don’t know anywhere that isn’t shut down and patrolled at least in theory by MPs. In addition to the duty staff staying in the buildings 24/7 by and large. I’m surprised you never experienced any of that.

A security audit, for the record, means we need to assess both the place and the people. So every time we have to find space in a shop in Red Deer we need to ensure everyone employed there has been vetted, and that the facility meets our requirements. Does that mean none pass? No, but it’s a step that will require time and people to do it.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Ever see the old Finning shop in Red Deer? They worked everything big Cat. They have a 40ton overhead crane set up. I am sure upgradeable to 50 ton of required.
Many of the Mining Towns around Canada will have shops with similar capacity.

Upgrading the cranes needs the entire structure to be suitable for it, which also means the foundation the structure sits on is strong enough. The concrete floor needs to be strong enough for the point loading as well, as tanks have a higher psi in a smaller footprint. And then you need to get the tanks in and out for maintenance.

For something like that a bespoke facility in a location on a transportation route is probably cheaper, so if we already have them probably not the issue. Lots of options to make things work (Government owned, contractor operated - GOCO) but it all takes people and resources, and there are cuts all over to try and keeping doing everything with a shrinking pool of both.

 

[childs56]

It’s almost like any course of action has Pros and Cons which should be weighed, and sometimes the Cons outweighs the Pros.

Lol

So do we. Just in our facilities.

The following are some major defence Contractors in Canada. Most of them work within their own facilities.
Allied Shipbuilders

Bombardier Aviation

Bristol Aerospace

Cadex Defence

Colt Canada

General Dynamics Mission Systems - Canada

Haley Industries

Magellan Aerospace

Noorduyn

Pratt & Whitney Canada

Roshel

Seaspan ULC

STREIT Group

Top Aces

Wescam

Rheinmetall Canada

Facilities are not, and have never been the issue. People.. yes to a point, parts are the real issue. Unless you’re going to totally overhaul our supply chain to Rheinmetal I don’t see much effect.

Parts are not the issue, Canadian Procurement is the issue due the the way the system is set up, not actually physically getting parts.

If your alarms didn’t work at your facility that’s a serious breach and would warrant investigation. Bases are also secured by MPs, Edmonton is gated and patrolled, Shilo is patrolled, I don’t know anywhere that isn’t shut down and patrolled at least in theory by MPs. In addition to the duty staff staying in the buildings 24/7 by and large. I’m surprised you never experienced any of that.

I experienced that very much so. I also experienced how secure Canadian Military installations are, drunk guys climbing over fences into secure dockyards, equipment going missing, alarms not working properly, or not set. Call outs etc.
A few MPs on a base driving around is similar to hiring a security company to perform roving patrols. Similar to what many major companies pay to do. In some cases those Security Personal carry guns and "handcuffs"

A security audit, for the record, means we need to assess both the place and the people. So every time we have to find space in a shop in Red Deer we need to ensure everyone employed there has been vetted, and that the facility meets our requirements. Does that mean none pass? No, but it’s a step that will require time and people to do it.

Like that doesn't happen everyday with our current Defence Contractors. How about the shipyards that are a revolving door of employees, how do they do it?

I am pretty sure if I said the sky was blue you would state no it wasn't. If I said the sun was yellow again you would say light is not the same within the Military complex without difficulties to prove it.

Ultimately 100s of Companies across Canada perform sensitive duties for the Canadian Forces daily. Those companies perform these duties within any magnitude of reasons you can come up up that they should not be able to.
The obstacles you mention are not obstacles they are your thoughts on why you feel it cannot work or will not work reasonably. In fact you are wrong because they work well every single day from the UAV manufacture overhaul facility in Medicine Hat, The Avionics overhaul in Calgary, Seapsan Ship Yard in BC who perform work on our and our Allies ships, to Magellan in Winnipeg who deal with Rocket stuff, to Bombardier in Québec GDLSC in Ont, and the list goes on and on.

It has been stated in the news and from the military themselves, That they have a serviceability issue with equipment. So instead of lining the stuff on the Healing fence and crossing our fingers it will fix itself, lets put some thought into how to fix the issues. Discussions here do end up in think tanks across the country.

 

[Spencer100]

Lol

The following are some major defence Contractors in Canada. Most of them work within their own facilities.
Allied Shipbuilders

Bombardier Aviation

Bristol Aerospace

Cadex Defence

Colt Canada

General Dynamics Mission Systems - Canada

Haley Industries

Magellan Aerospace

Noorduyn

Pratt & Whitney Canada

Roshel

Seaspan ULC

STREIT Group

Top Aces

Wescam

Rheinmetall Canada


Parts are not the issue, Canadian Procurement is the issue due the the way the system is set up, not actually physically getting parts.

I experienced that very much so. I also experienced how secure Canadian Military installations are, drunk guys climbing over fences into secure dockyards, equipment going missing, alarms not working properly, or not set. Call outs etc.
A few MPs on a base driving around is similar to hiring a security company to perform roving patrols. Similar to what many major companies pay to do. In some cases those Security Personal carry guns and "handcuffs"

Like that doesn't happen everyday with our current Defence Contractors. How about the shipyards that are a revolving door of employees, how do they do it?

I am pretty sure if I said the sky was blue you would state no it wasn't. If I said the sun was yellow again you would say light is not the same within the Military complex without difficulties to prove it.

Ultimately 100s of Companies across Canada perform sensitive duties for the Canadian Forces daily. Those companies perform these duties within any magnitude of reasons you can come up up that they should not be able to.
The obstacles you mention are not obstacles they are your thoughts on why you feel it cannot work or will not work reasonably. In fact you are wrong because they work well every single day from the UAV manufacture overhaul facility in Medicine Hat, The Avionics overhaul in Calgary, Seapsan Ship Yard in BC who perform work on our and our Allies ships, to Magellan in Winnipeg who deal with Rocket stuff, to Bombardier in Québec GDLSC in Ont, and the list goes on and on.

It has been stated in the news and from the military themselves, That they have a serviceability issue with equipment. So instead of lining the stuff on the Healing fence and crossing our fingers it will fix itself, lets put some thought into how to fix the issues. Discussions here do end up in think tanks across the country.

None of those companies but for Rheinmetall could work on the Leos. And I think they do now to some degree. You are also forgetting the IP license issue. I really doubt Canada purchased the total rights when we bought used tanks. With Leos your options are Rheinmetall and KMW. Yes Spain bought the IP package and GDLS-Europe (Santa Barbara) does the work but I doubt you could get that deal now for GDLS-Canada. Same with BAE Hagglunds. So you have Canada army shops and the two Germany companies for choice. Its a money issue. Like I said a new building is 100 million plus.

Also private industrial companies are terrified of government military work if they have never done it. There is a reason military equipment and services are gold plated expensive.

 

[markppcli]

Lol

The following are some major defence Contractors in Canada. Most of them work within their own facilities.

Were we not talking about vehicle maintenance here ? I assumed you meant our hired on contractors / GDLS folks that perform second line.

Allied Shipbuilders

Bombardier Aviation

Bristol Aerospace

Cadex Defence

Colt Canada

General Dynamics Mission Systems - Canada

Haley Industries

Magellan Aerospace

Noorduyn

Pratt & Whitney Canada

Roshel

Seaspan ULC

STREIT Group

Top Aces

Wescam

Rheinmetall Canada


Parts are not the issue, Canadian Procurement is the issue due the the way the system is set up, not actually physically getting parts.

I experienced that very much so. I also experienced how secure Canadian Military installations are, drunk guys climbing over fences into secure dockyards, equipment going missing, alarms not working properly, or not set. Call outs etc.
A few MPs on a base driving around is similar to hiring a security company to perform roving patrols. Similar to what many major companies pay to do. In some cases those Security Personal carry guns and "handcuffs"

Like that doesn't happen everyday with our current Defence Contractors. How about the shipyards that are a revolving door of employees, how do they do it?

Probably because those ships aren’t operational yet ? I don’t know you seem to be the expert.

I am pretty sure if I said the sky was blue you would state no it wasn't. If I said the sun was yellow again you would say light is not the same within the Military complex without difficulties to prove it.

Probably, I don’t do well with people who respond to point with “lol” then claim they’re contributing to discussions for a think tank. I’m far from the only person pointing out the issues with your suggesting to just farm out maintenance to oil sands companies. I’m just the one you fixated on for some reason. I’m flattered.

Ultimately 100s of Companies across Canada perform sensitive duties for the Canadian Forces daily. Those companies perform these duties within any magnitude of reasons you can come up up that they should not be able to.

The all meet the criteria I’ve listed. They’re vetteed, and perform given tasks.

The obstacles you mention are not obstacles they are your thoughts on why you feel it cannot work or will not work reasonably. In fact you are wrong because they work well every single day from the UAV manufacture overhaul facility in Medicine Hat, The Avionics overhaul in Calgary, Seapsan Ship Yard in BC who perform work on our and our Allies ships, to Magellan in Winnipeg who deal with Rocket stuff, to Bombardier in Québec GDLSC in Ont, and the list goes on and on.

It has been stated in the news and from the military themselves, That they have a serviceability issue with equipment. So instead of lining the stuff on the Healing fence and crossing our fingers it will fix itself, lets put some thought into how to fix the issues. Discussions here do end up in think tanks across the country.

We are discussing it, I’m sorry disagreement is so upsetting.

 

[childs56]

Were we not talking about vehicle maintenance here ? I assumed you meant our hired on contractors / GDLS folks that perform second line.

Vehicle maintenance includes fueling up, removing/installing engines, checking track, overhauling systems and the list goes on.
Levels of service required changes who and where it happens. To a degree. Right now the Army is short of Miantainers, find a shop in the area and perform that required maintenence.

Probably because those ships aren’t operational yet ? I don’t know you seem to be the expert.

Neither are our tanks apparently, except the 4 we are sending to Ukraine.

Probably, I don’t do well with people who respond to point with “lol” then claim they’re contributing to discussions for a think tank. I’m far from the only person pointing out the issues with your suggesting to just farm out maintenance to oil sands companies. I’m just the one you fixated on for some reason. I’m flattered.

I guess providing ideas on solutions to perceived deficiencies is a bad thing.
Finning is not a "Oilsands company" they are a contractor who fixes equipment. Who also have defence contracts around the world.
they and other Heavy Equipment service companies do provide a large enough service structure to maintain any Canadian land vehicle system within the Canadian Forces at this time.
We have civilian infrastructure in place already and have expieranced Technicians and Mechanics who can perform all the required 1st 2nd 3rd 4th etc maintance on the equipment if required.
From reading readiness stats on equipment we need a better system.

We are discussing it, I’m sorry disagreement is so upsetting.

No upsetting here. Just funny how the sky is blue the sun is Yellow.

 

[Spencer100]

CHILD54

Ok you got me thinking. I feel maybe I'm too hard on your ideas. I do think you have your heart in place. So on my drive home I thought what would work. Here I am going with the idea that Canada wants a home grown or at least home control over some equipment.

First I'm going to approach this from industrial side. I'm going assume the government is in agreement and actively supporting this industrial policy.

Ok here is my totally crazy plan to build Canada Land Systems Inc. First CLS Inc will need cash flow at the start. CLS Inc will need its own or good access to IP. We can't start as an R&D or prototype shop. Short of buying GD or BAE what is out there? My target is Arquus. That is the military business of AB Volvo. Arquus is mostly the Renault truck defence business with Volvos and few other plants. So why do I pick this? One Volvo was shopping it a couple years ago. Had no takers because of companies interested are all defence companies that would have had competitive issues. So they kept it. Second reason they are the current supplier of the CAF MSVS trucks. There are branded Mack but Mack is a Volvo brand. That would give our new company revenue in Canada with the sustainment contract. Also as we are dealing with Volvo we have them throw in their Canadian problem child Nova Bus division. This gives us two North American plants with work forces. One in Saint-Eustache QC and Plattsburgh NY. (Shhh secret they're for sale don't say anything) It will also give CLS Inc a civilian product line but with government buyers.

This idea has a capital heavy option where CLS buys all of Arquus and the gets the IP and European (French) plants or Capital light where you buy just the North American stuff. And go into agreement with Volvo for the IP and use of their dealer and supply chain and technology example Volvo Penta engines etc.
Problem on the heavy capital side is the French government who knows what they will want. But put that aside for now.
On the Canada government side they will have to be in agreement and do stuff they have not done. But model it somewhat on the shipbuilding but start after the competition. Or Colt Canada special agreement. So CLS is the single source for land equipment from trucks, Jeeps types up to the LAVs. (Give GDLS-C another LAV contract to keep them happy. Like LAV Air defence and some other things.)

So now CLS will start be producing the LSVW then the HLVW replacements moving on to the G Wagon LUVW replacement and at the same time many other equipment projects. With access to Volvo's products like contruction, Penta, European military, Volvo and Mack lines the CHER program can be also run through CLS.

There I have put the CLS Inc. together for you. Got a Billion?

By the time the Tank replacement and/or other fighting vehicles come up for bid CLS has a good shot. And you run a competition. CLS v GDLS v Hyndai Rotem etc.

If CLS go all in and purchases all of Arquus and Mack defence North Amerca you have a strong basis to get workd wide contracts. Need a good supply agreement and/or JV still with Volvo here. But that maybe work able. Volvo is still looking for cash right now to fund electrification of their remaining product lines. Because they could not sell Arquus they sold UD in Japan instead to Nissan.

In reality it breaks all the government procurement procedures, laws and trade agreements. Also an agreement that the Canadian government underwrites the deal and give the IP package that sovereign protection.