Training Development Officer ( TDO )

[JorgSlice]

To JMetc...


The hiring process is entirely unique

Jobs in the private sector dont take months - years to complete....


How can any reasonable person argue that attracting the best and the brightest is something other than a good thing.... Yes, sure, not all the jobs are suited for an intellectual type person....but would you not agree that it would help any organization.


And I never said i wished it was more lax....just said that a lot of people are thrown off by the length of time it takes

You guys like turning things into attacks against the military

Oh and "who I personally think they are missing out on" --- its an objective statement that any organization would benefit from more people who can be considered intelligent

The military used to be a place and is still stereotypically a place where only the failed and dumb go when all other occupations won't take them (according to public opinion). The CF is still trying to eliminate that stigma and try to prevent as much stupid from coming in as possible, however like many jobs stupid will always be present.

My total time from the moment I sent in my application to the Alberta Sheriffs to the day I was hired was 9 months, 11 days, 13 hours and 33 minutes. Private Sector looks more at the fact that you have a body and a pulse in order to continue their profit cycles, the care not of quality. The CF and other public occupations want quality over quantity when positions are few and far between like it is currently and with budget cuts they won't be hiring anyone that's going to require extra money to educate and train if they could just hire someone with the qualifications already under belt.

Most of your "corporations" don't care about me as a person with a life outside of my job and do not offer nearly as generous benefits or salary upon initial entry. My two employers one being the CF do. If the application time is unpleasant, we'll be more than happy to have you go elsewhere.

 

[JM2345]

Jobs in the private sector dont take months - years to complete....

How can any reasonable person argue that attracting the best and the brightest is something other than a good thing.... Yes, sure, not all the jobs are suited for an intellectual type person....but would you not agree that it would help any organization.

And I never said i wished it was more lax....just said that a lot of people are thrown off by the length of time it takes

You guys like turning things into attacks against the military

I hate to make assumptions and make an ass out of myself like you are, but you seem to really lack real world experience, especially when it comes to employment. From application to first day on the job, many many jobs in the private sector take at least several months. Most large companies will constantly accept applications, just like the military does, but that doesn't mean they hire you immediately for whatever position you apply for if you meet their basic qualifications.

Any job which requires a background check, criminal record check, and credential verification can easily take 1-2 months, if not more. If they run scheduled training sessions only once or twice a year, then you have to wait for those. If you need medical tests and blood work, those are going to add a couple weeks to the average time frame. It took me 1.5 months to finish the hiring process for a part time job at Home Depot, and I didn't even get the job.

I understand that ignorance is bliss, and that the average citizen probably thinks Canada never has anything to worry about and what not, but do you really want people with the highest levels of security clearance who got rushed through recruiting because they were impatient and were considering take a job from the highest bidder instead? Members who are motivated more by money and less by the desire to serve their country would scare the hell out of me.

I just have to think you are really underestimating or misunderstanding what the job of the Canadian Forces really is. I don't care how bright you are, and how physically fit you are, if you tell me your biggest motivation in life is making a lot of money, I would hope the Canadian Forces thinks long and hard before considering hiring you. Being able to get good grades doesn't necessarily make a good soldier, or a good employee at all. And yes, many officers in the military graduate being at or near the top of their class, including of course civilian universities.

It isn't about you attacking the military at all. Again, that is an assumption that makes you look like an ass. It is about reality versus some ideal that you built up in your head. You truly believe you know what would make the best employee for the military better than the people in charge of making the policies. We can see this just by reading your statements.

The jobs I have quit the easiest in life were the jobs that were the easiest to get. This is true in almost every job sector. The faster you recruit/hire people, the faster they will quit. If someone doesn't have the patience or drive to wait around for a year for a career, they probably aren't actually planning to stick it out for a full contract in the military. They are just looking to try it out and see if its for them, and if not, they plan to try something else. Why waste time sticking it out in the military if you truly hate it, right?

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

A couple months does not compare to a couple years


I didnt say rushed through the process, just stated that I know for a fact many people who were thrown off by how long the process was

Did I mention grades being an indicator of the top minds? No you brought that up

I didnt say people who are motivated by money would be the best for the job, I said that our culture has bred that into a great many people and that the CF would benefit from more people considering it as a potential career - but the issue is that to most it is not even an option *** if you even try to say more people considering it an option would be a bad thing, I fear you will lose any credibility you may or may not have on this site***


Haha you can call me an arse all you want ....

There are things called facts and the facts are that a lot of potential talent that the CF would benefit from having in their ranks do not even have a chance to consider them....call it what you like (we don't want em anyway!) but again ill repeat my thesis: any organization would benefit from a brighter talent pool and I just felt it a shame that our society is going in a way that the CF isn't even considered an option for them....which is highly unfortunate.

Stop putting words into my mouth

 

[JorgSlice]

The CF isn't restricting applicants or restricting people from "considering it as an option" - you can only do that to yourself. The CF is restricting the number of people they hire because there is only so many positions and not a lot of money in the budget.

All this talk about "talent" not being able to consider the CF an option is rubbish and is only because of their own shortcomings.

P.S. those aren't facts, it's your own opinion and hardly a convincing one at that. Most people don't want rewarding experiences, skills, etc. They want as much money as possible from day one with little to no effort. They consider the CF and then realise that real work is involved and then turn around and go somewhere else which is better for us anyway.

 

[JM2345]

I apologize if my statement was particularly enraging....I merely meant to point out how the public sector has a hard time competing with large corporations for the nations talent

I in NO way meant to imply you guys do not have any of these "best and brightest" , but merely that a great deal of my generations top minds tend to only strive for high paying corporate careers


Was just trying to throw a different opinion into the mix....

I completely understand inteligence is not the "be all, end all", and that many other attributes are highly sought after...

You are bouncing back and forth between what you call opinion and what you call fact. Your statements aren't enraging so much as they are frustrating and almost laughable. Who is judging "the nations talent"? Top university graduates? Although I am not part of the Canadian Forces and especially don't have access to recruit transcripts, I would bet a fair amount of money that a lot of DEO officers, especially Pilots, are top graduates. The military offers a lot of jobs that aren't available in the corporate world. People with dreams of flying a fighter jet aren't likely to fly a commercial airline simply because the pay is better. And when including pay and benefits as PrairieThunder said, the overall compensation is really decent and in some cases a lot better than most corporations will pay.

A great deal of "your" generation may be motivated more by money, but does that somehow mean that there aren't also enough people who are motivated by their dreams of a certain career the forces offers, or the desire to serve their country? I think many members currently or having previously served can testify that the Forces provides them with everything they need to live a satisfying life.

What is the main reason to turn down a job in the forces and accept a higher paying private sector job? To afford a bigger TV? To take more vacations? To have more money when you retire? A fancier car? If you are an intelligent person who is smart with their money, you should be able to afford pretty much anything you want with a career in the forces. So while someone may have a higher GPA, I wouldn't necessarily call them more intelligent. I have seen too many stories of hot shot guys making $300k/year their first few years in a big corporation and being broke and jobless a few years later.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

So JM

According to you the military would not benefit from more people considering it option as a career?

You literally keep skewing what I've said so I will not waste my time with your posts anymore


If anyone wants to argue that having a larger and more intelligent talent pool to select from would be a bad thing....well good luck in all your endeavours.

 

[mariomike]

....I merely meant to point out how the public sector has a hard time competing with large corporations for the nations talent

Public versus private is discussed from time to time on here. Opinions vary.

"The result is that now, 50 years later, public servants are, broadly, better paid than their private sector confreres and they still have the old "iron rice bowl," solid, legally mandated job security.":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107360/post-1170502.html#msg1170502

 

[Chelomo]

Might not be my place to say, but I'm quite certain personal attacks don't help this thread's quality.

As for your 'thesis' OP, do you know how many applications get sent in for ROTP as well as DEO, versus the number of people they hire? I don't have the exact numbers under my thumb, but it's quite staggering, so I would argue that officers side, the CF gets its pick of the cream of the cream. I can't speak for NCM's, but if I had to guess, I would say they can afford to be selective as well.

The process is as long as it needs to be honestly. There's probably some administrative hiccups once in a while, but it's necessary to save the taxpayer's money that the recruiting process happens sequentially, since the DND doesn't want to pay for a security check if you're not medically fit for example. And there's no point scheduling a medical if you don't correspond to the basic academic criterias. And at any stage, anything that comes up is going to obviously delay your application so they can check it out. For me it seems logical for the CF to take their time, especially since those people they employ will be trained to use automatic weapons and some of them will handle confidential information on a daily basis. As a Canadian taxpayer, I wouldn't want any chance taken with the people in charge of my safety, and as a potential officer candidate, I hope to serve under/with people that can show dedication. If they can't stick through the recruiting process because it's too long, then how am I supposed to trust them with my life?

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

The CF isn't restricting applicants or restricting people from "considering it as an option" - you can only do that to yourself. The CF is restricting the number of people they hire because there is only so many positions and not a lot of money in the budget.

All this talk about "talent" not being able to consider the CF an option is rubbish and is only because of their own shortcomings.

P.S. those aren't facts, it's your own opinion and hardly a convincing one at that. Most people don't want rewarding experiences, skills, etc. They want as much money as possible from day one with little to no effort. They consider the CF and then realise that real work is involved and then turn around and go somewhere else which is better for us anyway.

You yourself state the public opinion about the CF...yes exactly PEOPLE don't consider it an option....people are a product of their society....how can any of you try to argue that more people considering it an option is a bad thing

 

[JM2345]

A couple months does not compare to a couple years

There are things called facts and the facts are that a lot of potential talent that the CF would benefit from having in their ranks do not even have a chance to consider them....call it what you like (we don't want em anyway!) but again ill repeat my thesis: any organization would benefit from a brighter talent pool and I just felt it a shame that our society is going in a way that the CF isn't even considered an option for them....which is highly unfortunate.

Stop putting words into my mouth

I tell you what, go apply for a job as the CEO of a corporation which already has a CEO and let me know when you get hired. If it takes a couple of years, or more likely never, then I think we can agree that the CF and the Private Sector do not differ very much in length of time it takes to get hired. Because that is what you are talking about here. An application that takes "a couple of years" is not the norm, and should not be expected. Can it happen? Absolutely! As it can happen and does happen in the private sector every day. But in the end, an application is nothing more than an application. It doesn't mean jobs are available, it doesn't mean other people aren't competing for the same job you want, it doesn't mean they have training sessions starting soon. It is just asking to be considered for employment.

Application to start dates take time. Yes, even in the private sector. Lawyers will wait for years for the right position to open up, because that is what they have wanted since they decided to become a lawyer. You can almost always make more money as a white collar criminal defense attorney, but a lot of lawyers don't want that. They have a satisfactory income and are happier in their work than they would be otherwise.

Since you say that you have these facts, we would all look forward to the proof you have to back them up. As an educated person, you know that facts have to be provable.

I challenge your "thesis" and tell you that an organization which has an increased turnover rate among employees who are "brighter" would actually be much worse off. It really doesn't matter how bright someone is, if they aren't sticking it out for their entire contract, and preferably making a career out of it, the CF wont have time to benefit from them, and will end up spending more money training new recruits constantly. I consider myself extremely bright, but ask me to turn a wrench and I will have no idea what to do. Ask me to fly an airplane, and I will crap my pants. Could you imagine how fast the CF would fall apart if they put more weight on intellect and less on the rest of the process?

That is a scary thought. But, since you have facts for this, I will hopefully have my fears assuaged soon enough.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Might not be my place to say, but I'm quite certain personal attacks don't help this thread's quality.

As for your 'thesis' OP, do you know how many applications get sent in for ROTP as well as DEO, versus the number of people they hire? I don't have the exact numbers under my thumb, but it's quite staggering, so I would argue that officers side, the CF gets its pick of the cream of the cream. I can't speak for NCM's, but if I had to guess, I would say they can afford to be selective as well.

The process is as long as it needs to be honestly. There's probably some administrative hiccups once in a while, but it's necessary to save the taxpayer's money that the recruiting process happens sequentially, since the DND doesn't want to pay for a security check if you're not medically fit for example. And there's no point scheduling a medical if you don't correspond to the basic academic criterias. And at any stage, anything that comes up is going to obviously delay your application so they can check it out. For me it seems logical for the CF to take their time, especially since those people they employ will be trained to use automatic weapons and some of them will handle confidential information on a daily basis. As a Canadian taxpayer, I wouldn't want any chance taken with the people in charge of my safety, and as a potential officer candidate, I hope to serve under/with people that can show dedication. If they can't stick through the recruiting process because it's too long, then how am I supposed to trust them with my life?

I merely stated the lengthy process frightens some people - I didn't argue anywhere it shouldn't take a long time because of exactly what you are saying....


I think my detractors were offended by the implication intelligent people dont apply for CF....For the last time I state again all I was ever saying was that the CF would benefit from more people considering it


And like prairiethunder states public opinion of the CF is unfortunate....

I find it unfortunate as well because I also consider it to be the highest of callings

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

I challenge your "thesis" and tell you that an organization which has an increased turnover rate among employees who are "brighter" would actually be much worse off. It really doesn't matter how bright someone is, if they aren't sticking it out for their entire contract, and preferably making a career out of it, the CF wont have time to benefit from them, and will end up spending more money training new recruits constantly. I consider myself extremely bright, but ask me to turn a wrench and I will have no idea what to do. Ask me to fly an airplane, and I will crap my pants. Could you imagine how fast the CF would fall apart if they put more weight on intellect and less on the rest of the process?

That is a scary thought. But, since you have facts for this, I will hopefully have my fears assuaged soon enough.

Where did I say a faster process was my point....nowhere

You keep pretending Ive said something that I have not


Good night and good luck

 

[JM2345]

According to you the military would not benefit from more people considering it option as a career?

I do not see any way that the military would benefit directly from more people considering it as a career, no. Consideration without action is really quite useless, and is a trait the military would not find attractive in the least. Patience, determination, planning, and action are much more useful qualities the armed forces can use.

And in addition, you would like to to explain why having more applicants could be a negative thing for the Canadian Forces? Really? You are arguing that the recruiting process is too long and is discouraging people from applying, so you want to see MORE people applying? Do you understand how this whole recruiting thing works? Is there any evidence that more intelligent applicants would do the job any more efficiently? Any evidence they would have less turnover?

If you can't prove to us that having a brighter talent pool would benefit the CF, then why are you asking us to prove it would hurt the CF?

 

[brihard]

Where did I say a faster process was my point....nowhere

You keep pretending Ive said something that I have not


Good night and good luck

Frankly you've been running in circles long enough now that I'm having a hard time picking out any concrete point you're trying to make. You have alleged that somehow the CF is closing itself off to people, that it should be 'easier' to get in so that Canada can better attract its best and brightest... That seems contradictory.

Let's sum this one up for you: There are two kinds of people; those with an interest in joining the CF, and those who do not. Of each category, some are people we want, some are people we don't. We'll never be able to attract all the former or repel all the latter. Since, at the end of the day, we only actually want to enrol people who actually want to be in the CF, there's a limit to how much we should concern ourselves with attracting that portion who don't consider us an option.

Do we have enough applicants? Very much so, yes.

Are we hurting because of a lack of quality of applicants? Neither I, nor, it seems, most others perceive it to be so.

Is the CF currently bringing in the right people to satisfy our role of developing, maintaining, and if necessary employing the unique capacity to kill people and break their stuff in pursuit of the national interest and in accordance with the mandates of our civil authority? I would say categorically 'yes'.

So if our current system is hard enough to catch mostly wheat and little chaff, if it allows time for proper background checks and for assessment of candidates, and if we have the luxury of matching requirements to jobs- say, a M.Ed. for Training Development instead of accepting just any business major for the job- what exactly is it that you contend we're doing wrong?

I may be missing something of course. I'm just an infantry NCO with an honours degree, so I'm probably not among that lofty few who really 'get it'.

 

[JM2345]

Where did I say a faster process was my point....nowhere

In a perfect world CF would have more funding and actually make it easy for willing citizens to join.

This wasn't you? You weren't the person who said in a perfect world, the Canadian Forces would be easier to join? When we asked for clarification on what was difficult about joining, you didn't give that the impression of it taking a long time to process was what was "difficult"? So then please clarify what you meant about being easier to join. Because everything you have posted in this thread is a complaint about how long the application takes to process. In a perfect work, it would be easier to join the CF. You posted this, not me. So clarify what you meant then if I am so far off base.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

I do not see any way that the military would benefit directly from more people considering it as a career, no. Consideration without action is really quite useless, and is a trait the military would not find attractive in the least. Patience, determination, planning, and action are much more useful qualities the armed forces can use.

And in addition, you would like to to explain why having more applicants could be a negative thing for the Canadian Forces? Really? You are arguing that the recruiting process is too long and is discouraging people from applying, so you want to see MORE people applying? Do you understand how this whole recruiting thing works? Is there any evidence that more intelligent applicants would do the job any more efficiently? Any evidence they would have less turnover?

If you can't prove to us that having a brighter talent pool would benefit the CF, then why are you asking us to prove it would hurt the CF?

I hope someone IN the CF can please reply to this...

It is extremely laughable that you could make such a statement that more people considering serving their country would be a bad thing....


I do not NEED to say any more to this, as that is one of the most insane things I've read on this forum

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Frankly you've been running in circles long enough now that I'm having a hard time picking out any concrete point you're trying to make. You have alleged that somehow the CF is closing itself off to people, that it should be 'easier' to get in so that Canada can better attract its best and brightest... That seems contradictory.

Let's sum this one up for you: There are two kinds of people; those with an interest in joining the CF, and those who do not. Of each category, some are people we want, some are people we don't. We'll never be able to attract all the former or repel all the latter. Since, at the end of the day, we only actually want to enrol people who actually want to be in the CF, there's a limit to how much we should concern ourselves with attracting that portion who don't consider us an option.

Do we have enough applicants? Very much so, yes.

Are we hurting because of a lack of quality of applicants? Neither I, nor, it seems, most others perceive it to be so.

Is the CF currently bringing in the right people to satisfy our role of developing, maintaining, and if necessary employing the unique capacity to kill people and break their stuff in pursuit of the national interest and in accordance with the mandates of our civil authority? I would say categorically 'yes'.

So if our current system is hard enough to catch mostly wheat and little chaff, if it allows time for proper background checks and for assessment of candidates, and if we have the luxury of matching requirements to jobs- say, a M.Ed. for Training Development instead of accepting just any business major for the job- what exactly is it that you contend we're doing wrong?

I may be missing something of course. I'm just an infantry NCO with an honours degree, so I'm probably not among that lofty few who really 'get it'.

Brihard I briefly mentioned how i wished the process was quicker.....not that It would benefit from being quicker


What i have been stating is that the CF would benefit from having more people consider it an option


Any other point you guys bring up is exactly that....something you're all bringing up

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

You guys ALL keep bringing up the tiniest shred of my post when in fact all the arguing with JM was about the benefit any organization would have from having more people consider it


Thats a fact and if you want to pretend otherwise congratulations

 

[JM2345]

It is extremely laughable that you could make such a statement that more people considering serving their country would be a bad thing....

I didn't state that at all. I very clearly stated that consideration really does nothing of benefit or harm to the Canadian Forces. It is useless. A million genius applicants considering joining, but ultimately deciding not to can really have no measurable benefit to the Forces. A million unqualified applicants actually applying for the Canadian Forces would have no positive benefit for the Canadian Forces. It doesn't matter how bright you are, some people will not be qualified for the Canadian Forces.

The only things that may happen with so many unqualified applicants applying is that either the standards of recruiting are lowered, since they are turning away so many hopefuls, or the automated "vetting" processes and initial application requirements are raised which would have the opposite affect of what you want. It would actually then become harder to join if that happened.

If we really looked at all of the top graduates of every Canadian university, and then vetted them to see who would be qualified for military service, and from there were able to give them impression that the processing time for CF applications was actually only 1 month for them, realistically how many of those people do you think would make a career out of the Canadian Forces? That is the real question you have to ask yourself. And from there, do we not already have people doing a satisfactory job in the position that those people would want to make a career out of?

Unless you have numbers for that, then you are just making wild guesses with no real data to back it up.

 

[Chelomo]

Actually, according to another thread here, there were 10 000 ROTP applicants last year for 350 positions. Quite enough people consider the CF already, as a matter of fact, there is a significant surplus of applications for many trades. The problem you seek to outline doesn't exist except in a few trades. People who have experience in the CF have been disagreeing with you throughout the thread and explaining to you why a larger pool of applicants is not exactly necessary since the dedicated ones are already there, and there's more than enough to go around. You can't seem to imagine that maybe they know about the reality and needs of the CF better than you do. While I'm never too keen on ad hominems, I think you should just accept that maybe they're correct.